Search This Blog

Wednesday, December 31, 2014

This Is How A Layman Runs His Sound System !!!

"The moment I collect any new sound I will just shaft it in."

I recall this so call statement from one of the participant at TH Hotel Productivity Seminar.

Hmm a very sad and not the right thing to do.

Your BH sound is a very precious thing.

I always advice my blog readers to take care of it like your life.

The moment you purchase those sounds try to safe it inside your computer.

If this is your first time, try to open a folder, safe these sound inside it.

After that you can then take them to your BH.

With the sound safely copied and safe inside your computer, you now owned a standby sound list.

Just imagine if the thumb drive dropped somewhere or stolen from your BH you can easily make a new thumb drive.

If you do not safe it you will waste a lot of your precious time and maybe will never get that same sound ever again.

Use some common sense for your own sake.

My advise is to start a sound library.

Get as many as you can in stages.

Get about 10- 20 good external sounds and 5-10 good internal sounds.

If you do not have try to call me and I will give you my valuable collection.  Remember there is a small fee for every sound.

Call me now at 017 7551318

Tuesday, December 30, 2014

This Saturday Morning Will Inspect A BH in BuKit Selambau, Sungai Patani, Kedah!!!

(Just a sample but this is not the BH referred to)

This morning Saturday December the 27th 2014 while driving back from TMC supermarket received a call from a BH owner.

I quickly pull my car to the side curb and start asking him a few questions.

He sound as if he lost everything.

All those nests about 200 of them are now zero.

The sound system back out on him and at the same time his BH now have a permanent resident, an owl and its family.

What a mess.

I promised to drop by and visit his BH this Saturday Jan 3rd 2015.

I am sure my visit report will be useful for him to push his BH back to its original purposes.

The good thing is that he attended the recent Seminar held at TH Hotel Penang.

After listening to my talks he realized his mistakes and know the solutions.

The only thing was that he wanted someone who is expert to check on other matters that can improve his BH.

His sound playing system seems to be dead due to perhaps those lightning.

It come in a kind of computer and the sounds inside are embedded inside those hard drive.

His son tried to get some one to recover these sounds but not successful.

I might want to take the whole unit home and perhaps get some friends to open it up.

This will be my third case from those who attended the Seminar at TH Hotel, Penang.

So far tackle two BHs and the third will be this BH.

Very glad that they are willing to get my service but what about you?

Call me at 017 7551318 if you think your BH is not doing well.

Monday, December 29, 2014

Two Days After The Productivity Seminar !!!

This failed BH is dead and located at Guar Chempedak, Gurun, Kedah.

The owner attended the Penang Swiftlet Productivity Seminar and requested me to be at his failed BH at 10:00 am on Christmas day.

I drove up there early in the morning and when I arrived he was still in bed.

"Sorry Pak Harry I just woke up.  See you at Guar Chempedak town beside the CIMB bank".

I was there on the dot.

After parking my car I took a walk and I saw the BH owner approaching me.

He apologized for being late and took me to another row of shop houses showing all the successful BHs closed proximity to his BH.

After some stories about the area he took me into his BH.

The ground floor was used to store electrical items and the top floor was his BH.

He runs a number of electrical goods shops.

He owned a few more units but not at the same location.

The moment we opened the BH entrance door the sounds were all dead.

No electrical power and he did not know where to activate the power.

His worker passed by and told him where was the main switch.

One more very bad scene was the water flowing down the staircase.

I don't feel very safe when the stairs looks messy and slippery.

When we reached upstairs nearly half of the total floor areas were flooded.

He was giving the excuse that it was good for his BH humidity but I keep telling him that he will be in a very big problem if those health officers should detect any mosquito larvae.

The strange thing was that there were at least 20-30 swiftlet inside the dead BH.

The number of nests according to him was only 20 after almost 3-4 years into operation.

I took a good look and after a few minutes I asked him to take me to one corner where I can sit and write my report.

This was when he poured his grievances.

"Pak Harry I already give up all my BHs and one day one officer from Jabatan Veterinar came to inspect the BH.  I told him that  I am not interested to tag the BH but he insisted that I should attend the Productivity Seminar.  Frankly I accepted his invitation since I was looking around for a suitable and reliable SIFU.  Mine no longer want to answer my calls."

He was very lucky to have met me and after listening to my explanation he realized that I do have the expertise.

He said that if Jabatan Veterinar recognized Pak Harry he must have the required credential.

So now he is sitting with me and I was busy writing my visit report.

His BH main problems are as follows:

1) He let the BH to run by its own.  He no longer bother to let the sound operate and let the whole BH flooded.

2) His BH uses the top entry system and is facing the west.  This is not a very good orientation.  Those birds seems to be staying only at the front areas closed to the main door and not deeper inside.

3) The hexagonal tweeter used was a DIY using two tweeters one facing the east and on to the west.  I told him to upgrade for a better quality using 6 tweeters.

4) His so called DIY hexagonal tweeter was not properly located.  He need to move to the right position.

5) The external sound tweeters at the main door were with two different type of tweeter's brand or type.  I advised him to use only one type so that the power supplied by the amplifier is well distributed.

6) The tweeters at the main entrance hole was not facing up ward but towards the wall.  I asked him where are those birds coming from?

7) The external sound tweeters at the 2nd door was only one.  He need to use more.

8) The BH floors were flooded and very dangerous to work or carry out my full inspection.  I warned him that those health authorities will summon him 300 ringgit for every mosquito lave found in the water pool.  Drain the water and use those chicken coop humidifiers.

9) His BH floor was never cleaned before.  I advised him to clean for the new birds monitoring.

10) There were too little internal sound tweeters.  I showed him those cluster tweeters.

11) I also pushed him to install about 180-250 fake nests made of 1 inch styrofoam.  They must be precisely located as per my requirements. All fake nests after installation must be sprayed with Super Pheromone aroma.

12) He also need to upgrade his amplifiers.

13) A new set of external and internal sounds will be of grate help to pull more birds inside.

My visit report was about 17 pages and when he went through he was speechless.

Never in his life a SIFU take so much time to come out with a visit report.

He paid my fee and I told him that I refuse to allow him to get those new sounds because I don't want him not to revamp his BH.

"Pak Harry you are the first who do not allow myself to test those sounds"

I explained to him why.  I got many BH owners who after switching to my external and internal sound will not proceed to revamp their BH.

The moment they see its effectiveness they will not proceed with the revamp operation.

My explanation to these people is that even though they flew in they will not be your tenant unless you modify those errors.

At the end of the day those birds will not stay since their BH were not properly done.

This happened to one BH owner whose BH is at Tikam Batu.

He was very excited for me to start the revamp operation.

He bought my good sounds and play it.

His brother reported that there were a lot of birds entering the two entrance holes.

The next round when I called to ask when can I mobilized to site, I received this shock answer.

"Pak Harry not need to revamp.  Everything is okay now." he replied.

I was a bit disappointed and I regret to allow him having those good sounds.

Please learn from this article.

Sunday, December 28, 2014

The Day After The Penang Productivity Seminar !!!

(This Tasik Glugor BH has its own set of Problems from the beginning)

Just after delivering my talk on how to increase your BH activity, I was invited to visit a BH located somewhere in Tasik Gelugor, Prai.

The owner was this contractor who was thinking of securing his future retirement plans.

He told me about his very unique story when he got the police involved.

He begin with attending a seminar on swiftlet farming.

Soon after he engaged this so called group of consultants (at least four people).

He asked for their help to erect his dream BH on a piece of agriculture land.

His mistake was to promise them like 20% of the harvest if they make sure the BH runs well.

Trouble started to brew when they don't event know which direction the main entrance hole should be facing.

Then came a very big problem.

Someone make a police report and claimed that he bought the 20% stake that was allocated for those consultants.

In the first place he claimed that the allocation was verbal and subject to the BH completed and successful.

However those "consultant" sold the stake to a third party and ran away with about RM10,000.

"Pak Harry at that time the BH was not completed and then come this person who I have never met claimed that he own 20% of the BH."

This was when both went to make the police report.

Two of the consultant were jailed but the third met an accident and died.

A very interesting story which you might want to learn and avoid such stupid consultants.

Anyway I inspected the BH and I noticed a lot of errors.

1) The BH was too bright.

2) The nesting planks were cover with dust and fungus.  I told him how to clean them using salt water and later apply a layer of raw nests water.

3) The number of external sound tweeters were too little and those installed were dead.

4) No hexagonal tweeter.  I stressed to him that any BH with no hexagonal tweeters is a dead BH.

5) The main entrance hole was too small.  Afraid of owl but I am sure there are ways to fix that.

6) The second window leading from the tunnel into the ground floor nesting room was too big.  The light were polluting the nesting room.

7) The ventilation holes were not with any extension pipe.  He should install about 2 feet long extension pipes at every 90* elbows installed.

8) There was no VIP room inside.  Told him where to erect the walls.

9) The amplifiers were not properly connected and set.

10) The BH have no humidifier.  I told him to look into installing at least one unit per floor (his BH is very small) but must be activated using those humidistat with 85%RH setting.

11) I asked him to open a connecting door to the room below the tunnel.  Currently he need to climb the wall to enter the room.

12) Those walls that were reflecting the sun rays should be painted with black colored water based paint.  Not all the walls but only those that were reflecting direct of secondary sun light.

13) Once the partitions were done he need to re orientate the tweeters direction.  Those tweeters must face the flight path coming in.

14) He should consider to install new fake nests.  He currently have some but new one should be deployed and installed precisely where they should be installed.

15) Inside his nesting room there was no external sound tweeters.  I advised him to install some at strategic location.

He was carrying out some revamp works on the top floor however I discouraged him.

What I saw was that the number of nests on the ground floor looks as if the birds prefer the lower floor.

With his financial constrain I recommended him to focus his attention to work on the ground floor.

Once your ground floor is occupied with 300 nests you get the top floor renovated.

Use the income generated from the ground floor to renovate your top floor, I told him.

While walking around the BH I suggested to him about planting papaya trees.

Plant about 20-30 plants and when these tree bare fruit harvest them and make them as insect generator.

Use those kitchen blender and blend them.

Mix with some yeast and ferment them for about 7 days.

After that place them inside the room below the tunnel.

These insects will bring more visitors to your rooftop and I think they will be your tenant.

I listed to him a few things that he need to do and once set I would be very pleased to come for a final inspection.

I wish he follow my recommendations.

I told him that I am not the kind of those four consultants who will sell their shares away.

I never even ask for any profit sharing, did I?

Have a look at some of those pictures taken.

(Half BH half residential)

(The monkey house construction)

(Can you see any hexagonal tweeter?)

(The main entrance hole is too small)

(Can you count how many tweeters are at the main entrance hole?)

Friday, December 26, 2014

Cenih BH: Flooded and Submerged Again !!!

Received the above picture from this poor BH owner.

"Pak Harry again submerged."

This was his second time.

The first time happened last year and the water level was about 8-9 feet high.

This time he is not so sure.

So far have not entered and waiting for water to subside.

I was engaged by him to revamp the BH and the nests numbers were growing steadily until submerged.

He is fully stressed and very disappointed but there is nothing much he can do.

The big problem will be after the water level subside.

Usually the number of birds returning home will be very little.

They might fly to other places and never return home.

Mainly due to lack of food.

Once the ground is cover with water there will be little insect.

No food no swiftlet.

Look at some pictures taken last year.

(This is the affected BH during normal time)

(The ceiling height is about 12 feet but look at the water markings)

(His data room. All amplifiers were below water level))

Productivity Seminar At TH Hotel Penang !!!

More then 60 participants came and listen to my one day talk on how to increase BH productivity.

The one day Seminar was organized by Jabatan Veterinar Putrajaya.

I was the third speaker of the day and delivered 5 papers.

Very happy to see that nearly all the participants stayed glued to their seats.

One thing for sure I make lots of new friends.

Let me show you some pictures taken during the Seminar.

(Dr Lee From Putrajaya Jabatan Veterinar.
Truly honored to be given the floor.)

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

Pak Harry, Good News And Bad News !!!

(Somewhere at Broga this BH was attacked by owls)

I was on my way back from Sungai Patani to Kuala Lumpur.

Suddenly my phone blip a couple of times.

Must be someone calling for some problems.

I was right a guy who owned a BH at Broga Selangor send a number of pictures from his BH.

Those pictures showed owl shits all over the floor especially at the entrance areas.

The moment I saw the pictures I told him that those shits are not from swiftlet but something big.

I suspected owl but who knows what.

I purposely called the owner and ask him how is his BH.

"Pak Harry I got some good news and some bad news." he replied.

I inspected his BH about 4-5 months ago and listed all the things that he should do.

One of the most important recommendation was to install a hexagonal tweeter above his main entrance hole.

Also put some power tweeters around the top entry hole walls.

Also recommended the erection of a few walls inside his nesting rooms to darken the areas.

He did one by one on his owned but he changed the sounds to my sound collection.

Okay this was the good news.

"Pak Harry I did nearly everything that you recommended and yes the number of nests now jump up greatly.  On the 3rd floor VIP room many new bird shit spots, outdoor VIP room also have new bird shit.  Second floor bird shit also have increased. I now want you to come for your final inspection and I promised to pay your fee plus give you a big "makan"."

My conclusion was that those recommendations works and the nests numbers are improving.

If it was not so I don't think he will offer me a big  dinner.

Now the bad news.

His BH is being invaded by owls.

They left a lot of their bird shit.

Again I listed to them what they should do.

The best is of course to wire up those areas where these unwanted visitors will perch before entering the nesting rooms.

Use an inverter to supply the current to shock them.

Also try to add those clamp traps on the walls around the top entrance areas.

The trap will catch them if they are not careful.

Those electrical wires once being touched will scare the hell of the owls.

The moment they feel the electrical shock they will not dare to enter the BH.

I told them to wire the entrance hole too.

The wire should allow those swiftlet to enter but not those owls.

Monday, December 22, 2014

Met A BH Owner With His Mom !!!

(Not this BH)

This BH owner owned a BH in Kuala Lipis, Pahang.

I received a call from him recently wanting to meet me and discuss about those owls attack problems.

This afternoon after arriving from my 4.5 hours drive, from Sungai Patani to Kuala Lumpur, met him and his mother at Ampang Park.

I was a but early and waited for 30 minutes.

The moment they arrived they told me about a few things that happened inside their BH and wanted my comments.

The first was about the effect of those fake nests sprayed with Super Pheromone.

They have already installed about 200 and sprayed with a canister of the pheromone.

So far the result is satisfactory.

A lot of these fake nests seems to be occupied by those young couples.

I explained about how and why these fake nests are useful.

The best for now is to continue spraying but they should be a bit more agressive.

I proposed to them on the application of the NKS (Nest Kick Start) method.

During your next trip try to get ready a number of ready fake nests and a canister of pheromone.

When you see a fresh bird shit spots on the floor, take a ladder and climb up to the possible place that they have been staying.

Check for any markings and once found you need to deploy those fake nest.

Screw a unit just below those markings.

Once done spray the pheromone.

Move around and try to locate more of these markings (fresh bird shit spots) on the floor and repeat the method.

I assured them that within the next couple of weeks they will occupy the fake nest.

If they leave some markings on the fake nest installed, you need to spray the pheromone one more time.

I guarantee them that within the next few weeks the nest will be completed and if they are lucky there will be an egg or two.

The NKS method is good for a new BH.

It helps those young couples to start building their nest.

The second concern was about those owls.

The discovered the owls shits and vomit on the BH floors.

An auto gate was order but wanted to ask what else can be done.

My recommendation was to deploy electrical fencing or shock line.

The cost to install is way cheaper as compared to auto gate system.

Beside the shock electrical line they should also deploy those owl clam,

The best is to install at least two to three deterrent to those owls.

One last item that they wanted my help was to compete with their neighbors.

There were a few that are doing very well but not theirs.

My advise to them is to let me make a trip and take a good look at the BH inside and outside.

Once that is done I might be able to recommend when to upgrade and what to do next.

Currently they are not doing the right thing and based on so many advises from so many people.

I told them to monitor their BH for a couple more months and if the nests numbers are not moving call me to drop by for a formal inspection.

I hope they listen to my advise because I know I am good in identifying their BH problems.

Sunday, December 21, 2014

Kepala Batas BH: December 2014 !!!

Two weeks ago everything was well but two days ago there was no sound.

I was on a two days trip to SPatani and dropped by the Kepala Batas BH.

The moment I arrived I was not happy that the sound was not working.

Inspected the BH and there was a note from TNB on some maintenance operation around the area.

The moment I entered the data room all the amplifiers were down due to no power supply.

Took a look at the fuse box and saw one of the many switches were off.

I know this must be due to those TNB people.

Switched on and everything looks okay.

Got the sound back and those birds started to gather as usual.

They play around the monkey house and most will enter the two entrance holes.

Have not inspected inside the BH.

Better to wait for a few more weeks.

Once ready will take note of the number of new nests and markings.

Planned to enter and carry out the NKS on January 5-6th, 2015.

If you wanted to come and inspect together let me know.

Call me at 017 7551318.

See the rest of the clips taken a few days ago (December 19th 2014).

I am using two external sounds running simultaneously.

So far they seems to have a very positive results and let us hope that they will continue with their activities above and inside the monkey house.

Let me know if you wanted to learn more about the dual sounds system.

Friday, December 19, 2014

Getting Positive Results With Pheromone Users !!!

The pheromone liquid now is out of stock.

Now holding about 400 canisters type spray.

The last few weeks there have been a strong request and I am happy that most of these calls came from people who just bought for the first time.

Today from Kuala Lipis Pahang wanted me to get him a few more canisters.

His SMS message:

"Hi Pak Harry, do U still have the hormone?  Good effect and we would like to refill, could we meet up again?"

I wanted to meet him for a short interrogation.

It will be nice if he can tell me the exact thing that he observed after applying the first batch of pheromone.

He bought a couple of canisters a few months back.

If he can bring some pictures I will share it will all of you.

He also wanted my advise about those owls attacks.

I remember that he was the same person who reported that his BH was not long ago attacked by those Civets.

They only eat the birds head and not their bodies.

His BH floor were littered with the headless bodies of swiftlet.

He managed to trap the civet a few weeks later.

Now those owls are casing havoc.

Another interesting thing was the order that was placed by someone residing in Sampit, Kalimantan Timor, Indonesia.

This guy must have tried before and this time he went for the 2X concentration pheromone solution.

I posted the item with an external sound.

Need to follow up with him on the improvements so far.

Another call was from a BH equipment distributor to Vietnam.

His agent was looking for more pheromone.

I am glad that these second time users are continuing the use.

It must be showing good result.

Good for them and I am sure those of you who have never tried the pheromone will think like them.

Try a canister and see what it will do with your BH nests population.

The best method is to use in conjunction with those fake nests.

Install the fake nests and spray the pheromone on them.

If you call pull those wild birds inside your BH you can rest assured that they will occupy those fake nest you installed and sprayed.

Try one and see if I am wrong.

Call me at 017 7551318

Thursday, December 18, 2014

The Erecting Of Monkey House At Rembau BH is Up And Ready !!!

The BH owner called and confirmed that his contractor have completed the Monkey house erection.

I wanted to drop by much earlier but need to focus on the presentation materials for the coming Seminar at TH Hotel Penang.

Plan to drop by soon.

My main reason in asking him to change the entrance hole have something to do with the slow growth result.

The BH original design was with a top entry type.

Now a steel structure covered with those zinc sheet helps to cover the top entry section turning the BH to a Monkey House entry type.

I was at the BH when the steel works started and told the fabricator where the two entrance windows must be located.

The main direction will be towards the pond while a second hole to face the morning sun direction.

I told him the the point to start the opening was 1.5 feet below the roof and 1.5 feet away from the corner.

I wanted the window to be higher but nearer to the wall (not in the middle).

The roof must direct the rain water to the side and not into the monkey house.

I was concerned about the water curtain when rain starts to come during the evening time.

If this happened the second window that are free from the water curtain will allow those birds to enter the monkey house.

My next job on the new structure is to install a new hexagonal tweeter and external sound tweeters.

These gadgets must be precisely located so that they will be effective to draw those birds into the BH.

I must not forget to relocate those electrical shock wires onto the window frames.

These electrical wires will prevent those owls from attacking the house.

The BH shown signs of owls entering and catching those swiftlet.

The owl prevention system must be in place as soon as possible.

Will keep you all posted when the monkey house sound system is up and running.

Wednesday, December 17, 2014

Will Be Conducting a Seminar At TH Hotel Penang With DVS This December 23rd 2014 !!!

Been busy with the preparation of several papers in Bahasa for the coming Seminar at TH hotel Penang.

At first I thought it will be an easy task to translate all those English papers into Bahasa.

I was wrong.

Very rusty with the translation but so far finished the third paper.

The 4th should be ready by tomorrow.

I was invited to help DVS with the technical aspect of running bird houses.

With my many experiences in revamping BHs I think my observations and solutions are useful to the industry.

My four papers will be as follows:

Date December 23rd 2014

Location: TH Hotel Penang.

Organised by:  DVS

9:00 am Kertas 1:  Pengenalan & Status Pembanguna Industri RBW.
Paper by            : DVS Penolong Pengarah.

10:00                 : Sesi Penerangan dan soal Jawab
Chaired By        : UPM

11:00 Kertas 2    : Mengapa Premis RBW gagal untuk menjana pendapatan.
Paper by             : Pak Harry.

12:00 Kertas 3     :Alat dan Kaedah untuk membawa lebih banyak BW kedalam RBW.
Paper by : Pak Harry

2:00 Kertas 4       : Penemuan Penyelesain Masaalah Yang Tepat.
Paper By             : Pak Harry

3:00 Kertas 5       :Kajian Kes DiSabuah Rumah Burung Walit
Paper By             : Pak Harry

As you can see I will be required to take nearly 3/4 of the seminar session.

I have no objection with the itenerary and I hope there will be a reasonable number of people who will attend to the talk.

If things are well received, DVS planned to conduct a few more road shows after the Penang seminar.

If you wish to attend this FOC function call DVS Penang.

Tuesday, December 16, 2014

Collected My First 25Kg Bag of MycorGold !!!

This is my first experience in buying this special fungi that will be used at Bujang Orchard.

The 25 kg bag is currently in my car and will arrive Bujang orchard this Friday Decemebr 19th 2014.

Will prepare a solution and applied on all those fruit plants planted a few months ago.

My first priority will be those Soursop and Nangka.

Once mix the clay with mycorrhizal will pour around the tree trunks.

Perhaps some soil loosening around the trunk would be helpful.

Beside the application I plan to produce the fungi myself.

This can be easily done by mixing the clay with those soil and place them into a plastic bag.

Once ready will plant a few of those grass that produce lots of roots.

It this plan works I might not be buying any new fungi anymore.

Will start the appropriate bagging this weekend.

I used to hate those grass/weeds but now they will work to reproduce these fungi.

Might be able to sell some to those who wanted some for trial.

Call me at 017 7551318.

Each will be in a 2 kg bag.

Cost will be very lesser then buying from those agri product sales shops.

This will help you and your orchard or garden.

You can manufactured it my following my method.

Yah, let those grass/weeds work for you !!!

Sunday, December 14, 2014

Bujang Orchard: Covered The Trunk Areas With Plastic Layer !!!

(The orchid mat cut and laid around fruit trees)

I was a bit disturbed with those wild grass invading the trees planted at Bujang Orchard.

They seems to grow faster then those fruit trees.

Been cracking my head on how to control them especially around the tree trunks.

My first option was to scrap the grass around the trunk about 3 feet radius.

(Original idea was to remove the grass around the trunk)

This went well but the wild grass will start to colonize them within a few short weeks.

This was when I came out with the idea of putting a plastic mat around the tree trunks.

The plastic mat must be thick enough and able to prevent the sunlight from reaching the covered areas.

I went to a hardware shop and asked about the mat properties.

"Oh ya we have the 70%, 90% and 100%." he told me.

Can you be a bit more specific what do you meant by the percentages?

"The 70% will prevent the sunlight to go through while the 100% will have no light through" he answered.

Now I begin to digest.

In that case I went for the 100%.  It was a bit higher price as compared to the 70% due to production material used.

I took back the the orchard and cut them into square shape about 3'X3'.

Inserted the mat around the tree trunk and covered with some loose soil to prevent it from being blown away during heavy wind.

The mat is porous enough to allow water to seep threw when it rain.

This might be a very good idea for the moment.

Let see how it works during my nest visit.

The mat will prevent the sun light in thus will not allow those grass or seed to germinate.

This will help to keep the soil around the trunk free of wild grasses and at the same time moist the soil below it.

Never thought about this idea before and hope it will do some good the the whole orchard.

The Nangka trees trunks were all covered but not the sour-sop trees.

Will fix them during my next trip home.

My most exciting project is to treat all these trees with mycorrhizal fungi.

Already ordered a 25 kg bag and hope to apply during my next trip.

A wonderful idea and it will be good to see if the mat will make the plant grow faster then without it.